In attendance: Ryan Rebouche, Meredith Mighell, David Aubry, Brian Salvatore, April Dahm, Loren Demerath, Theron Jackson, Steph Pedro.
As promised, we talked about property taxes, and also about the bond issue coming up. Elliot Stonecipher's recent appearence on LPB's "The State We're In" had created some confusion about property taxes, and by implication about the bond. Pedro was in communication with Stonecipher and had invited him to the meeting and also asked to see the data he used to draw conclusions that Shreveport was over-taxed, but he said he wasn't able to share it. Stonecipher also said a lot of Shreveport's problems are "demographic".
There has been a lot of discussion at ABS about the bond issue in recent weeks, and people generally seem to be in favor of it.
However, at our meeting last night, Murray Lloyd said he'd also like to see the city council form a committee that deals with the long term sustainability of maintaining our water and sewer system. Others agreed with that idea.
There seems to be a consensus at ABS, though, that something has to be done. This KSLA story by Adria Goins shows some of the need: raw sewage in our streets! And this excellent short video by Liz Swaine shown at an earlier ABS meeting gets at more of the details. (And here's another where she explains more about deciding on a bond over higher taxes or fees.)
Shreveport has an excellent bond rating, so it's a relatively good deal for us to borrow money to fix our water and sewer system. But, if one votes against the bond, is the presumption that we're better served by paying higher fees or taxes? Surely we can't neglect the problem, can we?
One person noted at our meeting last night that when you consider our garbage fees, and sewer and water fees (or lack of them), our lowest in the state sales tax of major cities, and other factors, Shreveport may not be over-taxed, as implied by Eliot Stonecipher recently, but under-taxed.
A fuller version of the notes of the meeting:
The group briefly chatted about I-49; it was said that won't go up over wet lands, and no land has been officially reserved for it.
On the radio show “Time for ABetterShreveport” earlier that afternoon (5-5:45) they talked about the bond issue with Monty Walford (as well as with Mr. Barrett about the Burton Foundation).
Murray Lloyd works in conflict resolution and suggested we adopt rules of engagement for the group. Ed Morrison's group had general the rule there would be no personal attacks. It was agreed that ABS should adopt the following rule for that evening's meeting, and the organization can consider adopting it formally at the next meeting: The rule of engagement is as follows: In ABS discussions we communicate civilly, we do not characterize individuals and their motives, but focus on ideas and information.
Examples of least inferring personal motives were discussed, which can offend people. Examples included ABS email, as well as radio shows that aired earlier that day (though not “Time for ABetterShreveport”).
It was noted that getting personal might be the norm in most discourse, but also that ABS should try to meet the standard of truly civil discourse. It was also noted that generally when the rules are put in place they're self-enforcing; people are taken aside and talked to privately if they violate the rules—perhaps unintentionally.
PROPERTY TAXES:
The group then discussed property taxes and the conclusion of Eliot Stonecipher on LPB that our taxes are inordiantly high. It was noted that our bond rating is actually excellent. Caddo Parish was the top in the state for a bond rating. Salvatore said Shreveport can borrow money cheaper than almost any city in the state. The Parrish is AA, and the city is A+
Theron Jackson said there was confusion about it the bond and that the spin on it depends on who you talk to. As a context for discussion Jackson noted that we could make the decision to be the lowest taxed city in America but it might not make us competitive; its value might depend on one's ideological point of view.
Jackson noted that the city says we've got a 1.5 billion dollar deficit in need in funding (not debt) for infrastructure. This administration has unwound swaps and closed the debt that was increased in the previous administration.
It was noted that comparing taxes in cities as Stonecipher did on LPB, and then comparing schools and saying the funds are misused is an overly simplistic model ignoring the effects of a knowledge-economy, a creative class, the state capital, and tourism that distinguish Baton Rouge and New Orleans from Shreveport.
It was also noted that Glover Administration had declined to appoint an infrastructure committee; or was it the council who didn't? Lloyd and Jackson appeared to disagree on that point.
Lloyd pointed out that the annual upkeep costs in water and sewage is 75 million dollars per year. The amount of money in the bond issue for infrastructure is for maintenance. There's no step two to make it sustainable. We'd have to increase rates 100% to raise just $50 million. Theron said we've become entitled that way. We've given people a $1.50 in service for a .25 cent contribution. The state's homestead exemption is like that as well. And the garbage fee isn't sustainable either; we're underpaying our taxes. Pedro noted that using fees instead is worse, because they're not tax deductible. Pedro said “I want a garbage tax not a fee. A fee's not deductible.”
Pedro said the feeling of entitlement extends to the built environment; if you build a mixed-use development you make 10% on your investment, vs. 25% in targetted developments, so developers feel entitled to be able to profit at higher rates but at the expense of the community which benefits more from mixed-used developments.
It was noted that in other communities there doesn't appear to be the resentment towards government that there is here. In Bossier there was a franchise fee was increased from 2 to 5% percent. There was no objection to it. One person noted that in other communities they appear to simply vote for improvements, raise the fees, and move forward.
As an aside it was noted that we've got LSUS that held back in its funding because of competition with institutions downstate; we have no Ph.D. Program at LSUS (or in the entire metro region).
It was noted that the millage rate is not projected to increase because its providing more money than the debt serviced.
A complaint about the bond was that there's no strategy to make it sustainable in the future. Champion Lake has a force main that's so many feet long and it blew and they fixed and that happened over and over again.
It was claimed that in the past city officials haven't been able to talk about it lucidly and had no argument about why they weren't going to do it. Others agreed with Lloyd that we have to make it sustainable, but didn't know what the city is going to do about it in the future.
Lloyd said he knows they've been playing kick the can all the way down the road and that he's been yelling it at the rafters the whole way. There's only a few ways to raise the revenue: property taxes and sales taxes unless you want to go to fees.
Steph said it's a line item; the wate water system master plan is 3 million dollars; this is to update it; and they don't have the plan to make the decisions. It was noted you have to parcel out the funds a bit at a time; the councilman have to choose a few streets to repair out of the big book of streets that need repair.
Rebouche said of course the city can't do everything it needs to do because of higher expenses. It was noted that the city council agreed to tie on more houses to our water and sewage lines, and another today outside our city limits. We need to budget all of it. The projects are named. If you go on Daucett's web site there are a number of projects listed.
The law suits are threatened by the EPA on how water and sewage have been leaking up through the ground for years and we haven't been responsible enough to do anything about it.
Lloyd's proposal is that we ask the council to put together a plan for what they're going to do. But they may have to be from out of town because people in town are not trusted.
It was also noted at the meeting that one's response to all this might one's theory of economic growth: is it like a garden for which you need to buy fertilizer? Or is it like a forest that grows best unimpeded?
Pedro wants to look at other cities' fees and taxes. David Aubry does too and distributed the 2011 annual operating budget that appears to demonstrate the city's good bond rating.
Jenkins said he'd lower the millage if the bond doesn't pass. This shows we've got a good bond rating and the reserve is increasing. The money that hasn't been used can go to cutting the rate.
The next meeting will be on adjudicated property.
The group briefly chatted about I-49; it was said that won't go up over wet lands, and no land has been officially reserved for it.
On the radio show “Time for ABetterShreveport” earlier that afternoon (5-5:45) they talked about the bond issue with Monty Walford (as well as with Mr. Barrett about the Burton Foundation).
Murray Lloyd works in conflict resolution and suggested we adopt rules of engagement for the group. Ed Morrison's group had general the rule there would be no personal attacks. It was agreed that ABS should adopt the following rule for that evening's meeting, and the organization can consider adopting it formally at the next meeting: The rule of engagement is as follows: In ABS discussions we communicate civilly, we do not characterize individuals and their motives, but focus on ideas and information.
Examples of least inferring personal motives were discussed, which can offend people. Examples included ABS email, as well as radio shows that aired earlier that day (though not “Time for ABetterShreveport”).
It was noted that getting personal might be the norm in most discourse, but also that ABS should try to meet the standard of truly civil discourse. It was also noted that generally when the rules are put in place they're self-enforcing; people are taken aside and talked to privately if they violate the rules—perhaps unintentionally.
PROPERTY TAXES:
The group then discussed property taxes and the conclusion of Eliot Stonecipher on LPB that our taxes are inordiantly high. It was noted that our bond rating is actually excellent. Caddo Parish was the top in the state for a bond rating. Salvatore said Shreveport can borrow money cheaper than almost any city in the country. The Parrish is AA, and the city is A+
Theron Jackson said there was confusion about it the bond and that the spin on it depends on who you talk to. As a context for discussion Jackson noted that we could make the decision to be the lowest taxed city in America but it might not make us competitive; its value might depend on one's ideological point of view.
Jackson noted that the city says we've got a 1.5 billion dollar deficit in need in funding (not debt) for infrastructure. This administration has unwound swaps and closed the debt that was increased in the previous administration.
It was noted that comparing taxes in cities as Stonecipher did on LPB, and then comparing schools and saying the funds are misused is an overly simplistic model ignoring the effects of a knowledge-economy, a creative class, the state capital, and tourism that distinguish Baton Rouge and New Orleans from Shreveport.
It was also noted that Glover Administration had declined to appoint an infrastructure committee; or was it the council who didn't? Lloyd and Jackson appeared to disagree on that point.
Lloyd pointed out that the annual upkeep costs in water and sewage is 75 million dollars per year. The amount of money in the bond issue for infrastructure is for maintenance. There's no step two to make it sustainable. We'd have to increase rates 100% to raise just $50 million. Theron said we've become entitled that way. We've given people a $1.50 in service for a .25 cent contribution. The state's homestead exemption is like that as well. And the garbage fee isn't sustainable either; we're underpaying our taxes. Pedro noted that using fees instead is worse, because they're not tax deductible. Pedro said “I want a garbage tax not a fee. A fee's not deductible.”
Pedro said the feeling of entitlement extends to the built environment; if you build a mixed-use development you make 10% on your investment, vs. 25% in targetted developments, so developers feel entitled to be able to profit at higher rates but at the expense of the community which benefits more from mixed-used developments.
It was noted that in other communities there doesn't appear to be the resentment towards government that there is here. In Bossier there was a franchise fee was increased from 2 to 5% percent. There was no objection to it. One person noted that in other communities they appear to simply vote for improvements, raise the fees, and move forward.
As an aside it was noted that we've got LSUS that held back in its funding because of competition with institutions downstate; we have no Ph.D. Program at LSUS (or in the entire metro region).
It was noted that the millage rate is not projected to increase because its providing more money than the debt serviced.
A complaint about the bond was that there's no strategy to make it sustainable in the future. Champion Lake has a force main that's so many feet long and it blew and they fixed and that happened over and over again.
It was claimed that in the past city officials haven't been able to talk about it lucidly and had no argument about why they weren't going to do it. Others agreed with Lloyd that we have to make it sustainable, but didn't know what the city is going to do about it in the future.
Lloyd said he knows they've been playing kick the can all the way down the road and that he's been yelling it at the rafters the whole way. There's only a few ways to raise the revenue: property taxes and sales taxes unless you want to go to fees.
Steph said it's a line item; the wate water system master plan is 3 million dollars; this is to update it; and they don't have the plan to make the decisions. It was noted you have to parcel out the funds a bit at a time; the councilman have to choose a few streets to repair out of the big book of streets that need repair.
Rebouche said of course the city can't do everything it needs to do because of higher expenses. It was noted that the city council agreed to tie on more houses to our water and sewage lines, and another today outside our city limits. We need to budget all of it. The projects are named. If you go on Daucett's web site there are a number of projects listed.
The law suits are threatened by the EPA on how water and sewage have been leaking up through the ground for years and we haven't been responsible enough to do anything about it.
Lloyd's proposal is that we ask the council to put together a plan for what they're going to do. But they may have to be from out of town because people in town are not trusted.
It was also noted at the meeting that one's response to all this might one's theory of economic growth: is it like a garden for which you need to buy fertilizer? Or is it like a forest that grows best unimpeded?
Pedro wants to look at other cities' fees and taxes. David Aubry does too and distributed the 2011 annual operating budget that appears to demonstrate the city's good bond rating.
Jenkins said he'd lower the millage if the bond doesn't pass. This shows we've got a good bond rating and the reserve is increasing. The money that hasn't been used can go to cutting the rate.
The next meeting will be on adjudicated property.
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